Living in the new virtual world. How technology has changed every aspect of our lives.

Transcript

Welcome Facebook viewers. This is Brad Botes and with this week's episode of the Bond and Botes Facebook Live, we appreciate you joining us again today and I want to remind all of our viewers that these episodes live on our Facebook page and also on our website. Um so, if you know somebody that you think would benefit from the information we'll talk about today or any of our past episodes, please refer them back to our Facebook page or just share this feed. Uh Today, we're very fortunate to have my good friend uh California attorney Erik Clark. Erik, welcome. Thanks for joining us. Thank you, Brad. It's good to be back with you. Thanks. So, Erik, last week, we had our friend uh Attorney Ed Bolts out of North Carolina and we talked about the new legislation that's been introduced in congress to provide for dischargability of some student loans anyway, um we're we're hopeful with bipartisan support that that legislation is going to make its way through congress but you know, it's just an adaption that we're making as bankruptcy attorneys pushing for changes in bankruptcy, you know, and on that note I, guess everything is changed for the last 14 months or so and that's what we want to talk about today but first for my viewers, um just a little bit about Erik. Erik is the managing partner with Borowitz and Clark which is a bankruptcy law firm located in Southern California. Erik's board certified. He attended. Let's see. You're a member of the state bar of California, New York, and Connecticut. You served as an adjunct professor for a period of time at the Loyola Law School there in Los Angeles served as president of the National Consumer Bankruptcy Litigation Center and uh the American Consumer Bankruptcy College. um and you've really helped your local bar there in California um adapt to the changes that we've seen over the last year and that's one of the reasons I wanted to have you on today. Um let's see You finished law school in 1994 at a university which is in Hampton, Connecticut. Hampton, Connecticut. Yes. Made your way out to California. um and uh you know, as I shared and I want to just emphasize for our viewers, Erik is one of the leaders um nationally amongst the consumer bankruptcy bar uh respected by attorneys across the country. Uh lectured to numerous groups and taught about bankruptcy not just to law students but to other bankruptcy attorneys. Erik, I'm sure I'm missing something. What else important about your background for our viewers? I'm uh I'm married with four beautiful children and uh that's my that's my real job and I and this bankruptcy stuff is what I do when I'm not playing the role of husband and dad. Well, Absolutely practicing law comes secondary to our roles as husbands and fathers and we both, we both share that feeling Erik. Um if you would have approached me and I don't know what your feelings were but if you would have approached me and 15-16 months ago in early 2020 and you would have told me that um I would be meeting with clients virtually that I would be interacting with clients virtually I would have told you. There's no way. I guess I'm kind of old school. Um you know, I wanted to shake a client's hand I wanted to look them in the eye. Um uh and uh I just wanted to hug him when it was all over. I mean, uh yeah, I mean the touch and feel of it all was it was uh was an important aspect of our business but you know, we had to change out of necessity as COVID set in um and the change we have and it hasn't been just with our professions with the practice of law. We we've seen changes just um throughout everything we do. um and that's why I wanted to have you here today because I know you've been a leader in this transition there in California um and we've talked back and forth and I thought it would be interesting for our viewers to hear our perspective on how things have changed, how businesses and consumers have adapted, how our clients have adapted and um and what the future brings. Um so, are you ready to jump in and have this discussion? Let's do it. Let's do it. I mean, we've all been through quite a quite a roller coaster over the last uh sixteen to 18 months and you're absolutely right. I mean, uh we were we I had heard of certain firms uh law firms practicing in other areas of law uh that were trying to do things virtually um back in uh the end of 2019, the beginning of 2020 Um I I met with clients who had met with attorneys virtually and were really put off by that experience and they came into my office saying, you know, I wanted to meet somebody face to face and and talk to them about my situation and so, uh we had talked about it. My my business partner and I and um had decided against it at the time for a variety of reasons and some of which will touch on today but um yeah I mean uh March I think it was March 13th or nineteenth of last year um literally with in 48 hours. My law firm went from a six office throughout Southern California firm to everybody working at home and really did not miss a beat in that transition and it was it was tough. It was uh it was a little nuts but um but we did it and uh we had some great help during that time and our IT people really stepped up to the plate and hit it hit it out of the park but it was not easy and um and then of course you didn't go through the transition and and the learning pains of how to conduct uh the of businesses that we do and meet with clients and and meet our clients’ needs and the court's needs and our employees needs and so on and so forth with everybody scattered across, in my case, Southern California. Right. And we experienced almost the same thing. You know, these the stay at home orders went into effect. Um in Alabama and in Mississippi where our offices are located. Uh I know you had the same in California so we had to adapt quickly. You know, one thing at the beginning. Um in addition to our IT folks really stepping up and helping us adapt technology. My staff across the board um you know, there might have been some little concern that are a little bit of concern. We couldn't monitor folks. We we couldn't keep an eye on them throughout the day but folks have jumped in and done their share and have been a real receptive to being able to work remotely when necessary. Um have you experienced the same thing there? I have I mean it Again, it was difficult because people were taking their computers home and IT people were having to reach out to them at home and get them connected and make sure that their internet connections were secure. that their computers were secure. I mean, obviously in a in a in an industry like ours where we have tremendous amounts of sensitive financial documents and information on our clients. Uh one of the premier considerations or concerns I should say that that you know, I have and I know you have is safeguarding our client's information and documents and so we had to go through that process to make sure that everybody had the same security protocols at home that we had within the office and so again, that's you know, that's a feather in the cap of our IT people that we're able to order up. uh all of the firewalls and varieties of things that we needed to do in order to get things um safeguarded and um you know luckily uh or maybe uh because we did a good job doing it. Um we've had no instances of any kind of uh concerns about that during the during the entire pandemic and again, when we were, when we first started this, I mean, we all remember, we really didn't know what we were facing. That's right. Um you know, if somebody had told me when I sent everybody home in March of 2020 that everybody would still be home uh in August of 2021 with really no end in sight. Um it would You know, it would have been I would have just not believed it. Um but and then there was also some real fear going on then because you know, know, we had never dealt with a pandemic. Nobody really, you know, in this country had dealt with that on any large scale like we we did with COVID and nobody really knew what to expect. I mean, we you know, we may recall everything was locked down the restaurants, the supermarkets. I mean, you know, you were ordering and food and being told on the internet that you had to wipe down all of your fruits and vegetables and cereal boxes and so um it was just you know, not only did we have to maintain the business side of this but we also had the real life side of it that had its own levels of fear and uh inconvenience. So, it was a real tough time and again the uncertainty at the time of how long this is going to be for created another problem because we didn't know if we were going and investing in a virtual infrastructure that was going to be long term or if this is just something as we were being told by the summer would be over with and um so you know, obviously, um you know, we can now look back on it with a lot more clarity but at the time it was um very uncertain as to where things were headed. Yeah, it's it's certainly been uh something that you know you can't see the future and we still don't know where this is going. You know we can't talk about COVID as being in the past perhaps a month or two ago. Thought we were seeing the tail end of things but things continue to change with this new variant. You know, I need to back up a little bit for our viewers. just to give a little bit more perspective on an Erik and myself and our practices. So, uh the Bond and Botes Law Offices are located throughout Alabama and Mississippi. Borowitz & Clark throughout um uh serve clients. now, go ahead and yes, I'm in California, right? The locations are fiscal locations are not still there but you're still servicing clients throughout Southern California. We help people with financial problems and have been for decades at both of our firms and we know a lot of our viewers after what we've been through the last 15-16 months are having financial problems. Um we encourage you to be proactive. Our offices offer absolutely free initial consultations. We'll do them from safety or comfort of your own home or office. So, so, you know, you don't have to take any risks We're concerned about your health and encourage you to reach out for help. A free consultation will be with an experienced attorney um and there's no pressure. It's just an opportunity to learn what your options are. Um don't wait until you're facing a foreclosure. Don't wait until you're facing a repossession of your automobile because you can't afford the payments. Um we have had some protections, you know, over the last year from our government. Uh there has been a moratorium on foreclosures and evictions, student loan collections but those things either have or are coming to an end and we need to deal with problems. So, please, if you are having financial problems or if you know somebody that is reach out to one of our firms. Uh again, we'll do that absolutely free initial consultation for you. So, jumping back in, Erik early 2020. Uh we have to make those quick changes and you're right, Everything changed how we grocery shop. Um we couldn't go out to restaurants anymore. Um so, our business and not just ours but all businesses had to adapt. Tell us some of the things that you did early on uh to make yourself available to clients and how things have progressed. Sure. So, uh again, the first thing we did was make sure that everybody was up and running uh in terms of my staff and then put out uh a series of Emails to contact clients to let them know that even though the physical offices that they were used to uh connecting with us at We're no longer available to them. We were still available to them just through different means. So, primarily what that means is that um Email has become the primary mode of communication obviously, telephone uh is still uh still available and then um we started to incorporate additional technologies in our office to be able to communicate with clients because again, as we all know now looking back, things have changed and the really the way businesses communicate with their customers and/or clients. have changed as well and so, how you communicate with your clients uh we now do text messaging with clients and uh they're able to text message back to us which is very convenient. um uh Email, we scan a lot of documents. We do um uh we don't do as much Zoom meetings as we do Google Meet but it's the same thing. Um so, if a client uh wants to have a face to face. It's done through Google Meet. Uh we offer people who are doing consultations, the ability to do it through Google meet out here in California. Um what we found was that most of the clients, almost all of the clients did not want to do uh Google Meet because they felt that they weren't camera ready which uh is the big thing out in Los Angeles apparently, I know how they're felt. I felt the same Uh I did too. I just figured that you know, people would forgive me if I wasn’t camera ready but uh but the reality is that uh out here, we found that most people have gotten very comfortable by conducting consultations over the phone. Um if there are documents that they need to provide, uh they can quickly scan it in. I'm surprised by the number of people that have scanners but also we've provided our clients with instructions on how they can download scanning apps and things like that so that uh we're really there isn't anything that we were able to do, pre COVID that we're not able to do right now other than shake their hands and give 'em that hug when the case wraps up and while we miss that, you know, for health reasons, I think that that's probably a good thing these days. So, it's and then there's some, there's a lot of other benefits that we can get into that that um that both we and the clients uh have realized by doing things virtually. Yeah, I think I think that for our clients, the biggest thing, you know, I've been practicing consumer bankruptcy law for well over 30 years now. This last year, first time in my experience, you can file a bankruptcy from start to finish without ever leaving your, you know, your home. um consultations with with the attorneys at our firm and at Borowitz and Clark can be done virtually over the phone or video if you’re camera ready Um you can retain us, we can gather documentation, we can prepare your petition. Uh you know, we can review it with you and then when we file it with with the court. The court is scheduling uh the hearings um by phone or by video also. Um so from start to finish, you never need to leave your home and Erik, that's so important because so many of our clients are already struggling. you know, having to take off from work to drive to one of our offices and sit in the waiting room took additional time. Now, we just schedule a phone call or if you'll call in, often we’ll have an attorney available when you call in to talk to you. You don't have to go uh to a court and find parking and sit and wait for your hearing. You can do that virtually. Um there are really been some benefits to our clients and to consumers Uh uh I guess we're fortunate that we are in a service type business where we were able to easily transition. I do feel for those people that were in the restaurant business. um uh businesses that did require folks to come by in person although even those people have adopted by offering delivery or pickup or You know, I don't know. You go to the grocery store anymore there in California? I have not been to the grocery store in months and months and months. Uh everything gets delivered um and I mean, we did have a period of time where we had dining out uh but I think that that's coming to an end as the variant starts to research in Los Angeles area and um you know so but again it's not it's not as bad as it was back then because we've been through this we now know what to expect. We've adapted. we know how to how to respond to surges of this uh of this virus um and so yeah, I mean and then the big thing for us, I mean, obviously here in Southern California which is you know, internationally known for its traffic and weather Um the traffic is real and so for a client as you stated for a client to come in to set up an initial consultation with my office was not uh. Um it was it was relatively inconvenient. I mean they would have to take time off. they'd have to fight through traffic depending on how long they you know, if it was twenty miles away it may take them 45 minutes to get to my office and then they wait for their appointment and they have I mean, I mean, it's, you know, it could be a day long experience Now, they call in or we call them uh I mean, most of the time what happens now, quite frankly, Brad, is that a client calls in to get information and they get transferred to an attorney right away and have their consultation right then and there. I mean, it could not be any more convenient. They're they're calling in when it's convenient for them. They're getting all of their questions answered right then and there. uh a number of strategies may be laid out as to how to solve their current financial problem and then can make the decision and if they want to retain our firm, we send them a retainer agreement through a platform similar to Docusign all legally binding, uh confidential. They just open that Email up. They read the retainer agreement, they click a few clicks and boom, it's sent back to me. I do the same and we are their attorneys and it can happen very quickly. Um so, it's been very nice that they have uh been able to make it not have to make the drive to one of our locations and um as a Californian, we also like to point out the fact that it does lower our carbon footprint It's it's something that uh you know, as we wake up every day and the smog in LA uh which has gotten better under COVID. That's one of the benefits of COVID but Borowitz and Clark is doing its part to reduce its carbon footprints by saving all of our clients to drive into the office. Well, That's a great positive. Erik. One of the things I was concerned about and I'm still frankly somewhat concerned about is the loss of the social connection, not just with our clients but with one another. Our staffs, um you know, we've we have a lot of people that have worked in our offices that have worked with us for many, many years and we've become like family with one another. um and I miss seeing everybody on a regular basis. How have you dealt with with that issue? Well, to be honest with you. in the beginning, I didn't really focus on that and that was uh in in hindsight uh a mistake on my part um while all of my staff for the most part uh really enjoys working remotely uh for reasons that we can talk about but uh and it's benefited them and their families. Um you're absolutely right Uh us to we are most of our staff has been here ten or 15 years or more Um you know, they're used to baking cookies and bringing them into the office and celebrating each other's birthdays and all of that type of stuff and I guess it was lost on me and sort of the hustle and bustle of everything that I was trying to manage that how important that was and so one of the things that we did a few months back was we instituted um regular meetings, Zoom meetings. So, I made sure that all of my staff had webcams, good quality webcams on their computers. We went out and bought those and we set up monthly meetings and and um and and departments have uh meetings more frequently but um and it doesn't necessarily need to be uh organized around a bunch of information that we're dispensing about The law changes in the law or the court's requirements or anything like that. It could just be checking in with everybody and you know, telling us, you know, what's the best thing that's happened to you in the last week? Um you know, just to sort of again as you say, connect with one another and reestablish uh that uh the communication between between each because it does get somewhat isolating when you're sort of locked in a room in your house away from your family and away from your your friends at work. um to just be plowing away at work and so we've started the the regular meetings to sort of get that connection back up and it's been it's been pretty it's been it's worked really well. Yeah that's great. We try to do similar things Um although not as regularly as I'd like to and I need to be better about that myself. However, this new technology, whether you're using Zoom or Google or you know, Facebook it is you're you're sitting in California. I'm sitting in Alabama and uh you know, we're having a face to face type conversation here. Um I know my family, my mother um is in her 90s and we don't haven’t been able to visit with her um in person over the last year but we've done weekly Zoom type meetings just to get together and talk and that wasn't something we did in the past but it's been it's been great. It's been able to get family together and just talk from different parts of the country and even though we're different parts of the world. So, I think we all need to be very conscious of trying to maintain those social connections, You know, unfortunately, I know there's been a lot of loneliness, suicide rates have been up nationally so we need to be aware that there are people out there that still need to be touched even if it's virtually right now. Right. And that's and that's again the technology has allowed us to do that with our clients which is really nice because you know, like I said earlier, I mean, while Email and phone is a is a method of communication, seeing each other, letting them know that their attorneys are still here, we're still there for them. Uh we still have their back and you are available to have a face to face conversation even though it's it may not be sitting in the same office and again, the acceptance on the client's behalf of that has really changed I. don't know. I assume you've had a similar experience. Um you know, uh as I said early on where we were meeting with clients that had had virtual experiences and were really not um did not enjoy the experience. The fact that we've all been thrust into this situation where these types of virtual experiences are almost mandatory has really broadened the acceptance of them and so the same clients that used to resist that are now very welcome to it because they see the benefits and they understand Even though it's a two dimensional communication. It's not something that you know, it's still valid and can be as important. Right. And thankfully, technology has made it this type. um uh communications um much better, you know I. remember several years back. um an attorney giving a presentation on virtual meetings and he almost had a studio set up in his office where you know but things could be projected in and all but now, it's just as simple as clicking a button on the computer and you're talking to somebody. Erik, you mentioned some of your employees. um you know, though we're not together as much um in person that some have really enjoyed working from home and that there's some benefits uh expand on that a little bit. What are the advantages of working from home? Sure I think that um I mean obviously there you know speaking for myself I mean I spent about I calculated it was about 15 hours a week commuting between all of my offices and I've got, like I said, early on, four children of variety of different ages and it allows me to spend, I mean, I get that 15 hours back to spend with my family which you know, my young son doesn't even remember a time when I went to the office anymore. You know, he's 4 years old and and uh you know, he knows there's an office out there but he doesn't remember me going and the concept that I would leave at seven in the morning wouldn't get back till six or seven at night is foreign to him and so It's um it's that's just been terrific. I mean, I love the that amount of time as do as does my staff. They're able to stay home. Lunch time is spent with their family. Um they can they can wind down at the end of the day and go straight into family time. Um so that's been fantastic. Uh they're they don't have to maintain the same wardrobe that they did and the dry cleaning bills are a little a little lower Um so, you know, there's some savings there um and it's just It's just a lot less stressful. Uh I think um than the again here in California traveling, commuting to work is a stressful situation whether it be on the freeways or through the subways or the bus system and so that all goes away and they can just focus on work and um and and what they're doing uh from during their work day. So that's been a real benefit to them. Um I think you know there are challenges that that presents to uh those of us are the managers of these law firms. Um the most important I guess would be um managing not only the client interaction with the staff and so if there's an issue that you might have overheard on the phone while a staff member is on the phone in your previous in office life, you don't have that ability anymore. So, the only feedback you get from clients is directly when the client brings it to your attention and those are rare but still you want to you want to be on top of those and then also Just the I think any virtual setting or remote setting I should say. Um employers have uh have an issue of productivity and are the people really, you know working to their to their um uh to their full extent and again I think that that comes down at least in my experience that you've got seasoned people that have been with you for a long time. They're committed to what they do. They like what they do. They enjoy helping people going that are going through financial distress. Um they love being able to dispense the knowledge that they've incurred over all of these years and um and so I don't really nobody needs to stand over their shoulder and say, you know, take that phone call, write that Email. They just know what to do and um and when they don't, they know what they need to do. Uh if they're not fully informed as to you know, what the next step might be, they've gotta take it up the up the chain and eventually comes to me or my business partner and we will handle it but um I think I think again I took a poll when COVID was sort of dimming and there was something on the horizon and that Los Angeles and the surrounding areas would reopen and uh I took a poll of which ones you know, who wanted to come back to the office and who wanted to work from home and there wasn't one person who wanted to come back to the office. Um you know, in spite of and we had already implemented this sort of monthly get togethers and things like that. So, you know, that sort of scratched that itch if you will in terms of the interaction between them and um the convenience of working from home just it's tough to it's tough to beat. It is. it is. you know, we we've heard a lot of the negatives and there are negatives out there. Um loneliness for some people and certainly this pandemic has had an impact on kids. um uh not being able to be at school often with their friends not being able to participate in athletic activities. On the other hand, You know, often kids are home with their parents and they're able to spend more quality time with one another. Um you know, before we break here and I do want to just uh break away for a second here and then give our audience uh if anyone has any questions, we've had a couple come in already um but please if anyone has any questions, feel free to post them here. We'll try to address them Erik, what do you see with the future? Are we ever going to go back to meeting in person? Um how will court be held in the future. Well, what's your perspective? How are things going to change in the future? I think that it depends upon the individual. I mean, but I think generally speaking, society, society at large uh will stay very comfortable with this virtual um concept and um it is just the efficiencies that it allows businesses to operate under uh are really tough to ever foresee. going back to the way we were. Uh I know my firm is fully committed to maintaining a virtual uh presence. Uh again, pre pandemic, we had uh lots of offices scattered around Los Angeles. We are winding that down and eventually we'll have one central location where staff can come in to work if they need to if something were to happen or their internet was down or or they just wanted to get out of the house and come into the office. we have that available to them. and we have an office that for those clients who do want to come in and sort of see the plaques and the diplomas on the wall and all of that. Uh there's that space for that um but truthfully, the attorneys are and the staff for the most part will remain virtual and um you know, it frees up a lot of uh a lot of flexibility. I mean, you know, I have uh you know the housing costs just to give an example the housing costs are rising all over the country and and meteoric ways but here in Los Angeles, the housing costs are just astronomical and so It has allowed employees of mine move out of Los Angeles. Um I now have people who work for me in in Nevada and Texas who have worked for my firm for 15 years and as soon as we went virtual, they realized they were no longer tied to Los Angeles and they were able to move out and um and live a little bit more comfortably out of state. so I just don't see it going back to the way it was. Uh there may be a hybrid model uh where some clients want to come in like I said and we will we will have that for the time being for the foreseeable future, we'll have that opportunity available but my firm is going to remain virtual and we will pass on the benefits of that to our clients and um and we will continue to look for an employee technology that makes that experience effortless but um we're pretty, we're pretty much there at this point. yeah I would agree. I just people who want to keep things from changing but it's hard to do. Um we've learned a lot of benefits um uh of interacting virtually. You know, it's funny. Um I used to get on my kids about not being able to interact with people in person. They spent too much time on their phones and who knew? Yep. Now we're all doing it this way. Erik, I want to take just a quick break here and then we're going to um field some questions from our audience for people that may have just tuned in. My name is Brad Botes. I'm an attorney with the Bond and Botes Law Offices and my guest today is Erik Clark with the Borowitz and Clark uh Law Offices, The Bond and Botes offices are located through Alabama and Mississippi Borowitz and Clark is in Southern California and we help people that are facing money problems We offer absolutely free initial consultations. We'll do them by phone or video from the comfort safety of your own home or office. If you do want to meet in person, we can do that also, but we want to help you address financial problems before they become a big problems. We encourage you to be proactive reach out and get your questions answered as far in advance of when real problems come to fruition as you can. I can help you and Erik can help you to stop a foreclosure. We can help you stop an automobile from being repossessed. We can help with wage garnishments with other financial issues that may become a reality After the challenges we've had this last year, um but the further out in front, you reach out for help, the better off you're going to be and although we are bankruptcy attorneys, I will tell you my first objective is usually to avoid bankruptcy. Bankruptcy shouldn't be your first option. We're going to help you explore all the ways out of the situation you're in but I'll promise you this, after you reach out and talk to one of our attorneys, you'll know more about the options you have. The uncertainty will be reduced um and maybe we can help you um get over some of the misperceptions about bankruptcy and what a fresh start in bankruptcy really can be for you. So, please reach out for help. this Facebook Live event and and the events we do every week live on our Facebook pages. Um if you know somebody that could benefit from this information or from one of the many topics we've addressed over the last 18 months or so, please uh share our Facebook page or share this episode with them. You can also go to our website where these videos uh reside and get additional information. our website um is available both on the screen and both of our firm's websites and on our Facebook feed Um and just to build on that I. Just wanted to add my client's feedback that that I've gotten over last 26 years. I've been doing. This is the hardest part of this entire process is to reach out initially to the attorney and because once they do that and they realize that this is not that there are there are real effective ways that out of this situation that um and ways to sort of rebuild the future. Uh the hardest part is reaching out and once they do, we can take it from there and uh forward Erik I've said that same thing um or something very close to it so many times. In fact, just last week, I had a call from a gentleman who had a business that had failed during COVID and he had been given my name by an associate and he said he'd been carrying my name and phone number around for months and he was served with a lawsuit and he finally realized he needed to do something and he reached out and we talked for about an hour. We had a good conversation. We explored all of his options. Um told me at the end of the call that he just felt so much better and it felt that he could face his wife and that they could discuss the situation together. So, um please folks, a phone call, a visit to our website. It's easy to do. Reach out Uh I hope you can tell that we're we're both people that are generally concerned about your problems and we want to help you if we can. So, please reach out for help. Thanks for adding that in Erik. So, uh I do again, I want to encourage viewers that have questions. Um Please post them. Erik, I've had couple that have started to come in and if you don't mind taking some of these questions, um I'm going to go ahead and let you address them. The very first question we have and it's a good one. Um are virtual consultations secure. Are they confidential? So, they're they're certainly confidential. Uh everything that is communicated between us and uh either a prospective client or a retained client uh is uh we are bound by that attorney client privilege and we believe that that is privileged confidential information so and it is treated as such in my office. Um as far as secure. Uh it's as secure as it can be. Uh I guess it's it would be my answer uh could somebody hack in. Yes. Uh I'm sure that the I mean Zoom had that big issue. Uh they I believe they say they've solved it but look, you know, if the Pentagon can be hacked, so can our phone calls so can our consultations. Uh I haven't had any problem uh and uh and I don't know of any problem that's that any of my clients I've heard of no problems since we started doing this uh back in March of 2020. So, I am very confident that the information that we transfer back and forth is as secure as it can be under the circumstances. Um again, I'm sure there's some hacker out there that can figure out how to certainly way beyond my ability to hack into to the conversations but you know, I guess I could, you know, the office of any attorney you go to could be bugged. I mean, so yeah II think I'll just add to that you know, just to emphasize again. Yes, all of your communications with one of us is going to be confidential. Um I know some firms um you'll talk a paralegal or an attorney that doesn't happen with our firms. If you call in, you need legal assistance, you're going to be put through to an attorney or have a call scheduled with an attorney that's licensed by the State Bar Association um and and we've taken an oath of confidentiality. So, the communications are going to be confidential um as to security Um as I said, nothing's perfect but I will tell you our communications have become better and better and more secure as we've moved forward with this pandemic. frankly, when things first started, we didn't really know what we're going to do or how to react but we made changes quickly and uh we've continued to improve the way in which we communicate with clients and yes II think you could be confident that things are going to be just as secure as they can be and the other thing I'll just add Brad is that not only are the attorneys uh the conversations with attorney's confidential but the conversations with our entire staff from start to finish is confidential. Uh the rules of the state bar require all of that to be kept confidential and as do we in the office and everyone of my employees signs an agreement that they understand that all the communications that they have with clients are confidential and I often tell them when they when they first come on board uh that even if you refer a friend over and that friend uh goes ends up having a bankruptcy through my firm when you're out at a picnic with your friends, that's not a topic of conversation that you get to bring up. Um so, Thank you. Thanks for clarifying that I certainly your communications with our staff are also going to be confidential. Um but I want you to know that you will have the opportunity to communicate with an experienced attorney one on one to address your problems. You know, Erik, just as a quick aside about confidentiality um and the conversation you had with your employee, It happens to me all the time. We'll be out. I'll be out with my wife at a function and somebody will share um that they talked to me and my wife will say you didn’t tell me that I’ll say I can't share this information with you. Yes. Yes. And you know, for those of you that are not sure about reaching out to a bankruptcy attorney, I will tell you, we are helping people just like you all around you. Um you know, I help the parents of kids that my kids have gone to school with. I help people that we attend church with. Um there's no stereotypical person that has financial problems. We all have financial problems. Um so, don't allow yourself to feel that stigma. If you need help, reach out for help and last a tidbit on security. That's one of the reasons why we use Google Meet because Google has a pretty deep pocketbook, a pretty vested interest in maintaining the security of its network and so while I, you know, may not have the resources to do all of the layers and layers and layers of security. Um Google does and so that's one of the reasons why we chose their platform was because of the security. Erik. Next question. here is another good one. Um what do you do if a client isn't tech savvy enough to meet online? Uh this person says, my parents have difficulty with virtual consultations and we we've had that situation and uh I mean it it always astounds me when I'm talking to somebody late in their 70s who says, you know, yes, I'll scan this right over and you'll have them in 5 minutes and just like, wow that's impressive. Um but we also have the people who are 65 and have no idea and you know, they still use the flip phone and just can't do it usually and these are rare cases but usually what we'll do in that situation is they'll have a grandchild or a nephew or niece or somebody who is tech savvy who comes in and you know, helps out with some of the the technology uh parts of it if that's impossible to do, then we have um again, we do maintain a physical office so they can come into that physical office. Um we just had I tell you in the last 18 months, I have, I've I think I've had one situation where they didn't have internet, didn't have a smartphone, Um really, you know, didn't know how to do anything other than talk on the phone. There's no Email and so we mailed them their paperwork. Um they had uh they ended up having a grandchild that had a smartphone and we were able to conduct the meeting uh to sign the documents because again, everything else could really be done over the phone. um and so we're able to um have the documents, have them sign the documents because it's part of the bankruptcy process. The attorney needs to verify that the person filing the bankruptcy is the one who signed the documents and so what we do is we hold a Google meet and we actually watch them on camera, sign the documents that we have Emailed to them and um so they ended up getting some of the smartphones but it hasn't happened where that we've just completely struck out on everything but in the event that that happens and there's just no way to get over this tech hurdle. Um then we do. that's the reason why we still maintain the brick and mortar uh presence. They can come in and we you know, we'll drive down and meet with them and take care of it then. Right. And our practices are similar. I will say that um there are fewer and fewer people that are not tech savvy from all different age groups they've learned that they have to Um virtually uh whether it's ordering groceries or food from a restaurant or just about anything they do these days. Um they have to learn but if you are concerned, if you have a grandparent, if you know somebody that just isn't tech savvy and and they still need some help, we’d be absolutely glad to schedule an in person consultation and and handle everything, you know, a one on one with that individual. Uh we understand this is this is uh you know we have issues. They're tough issues to address and if you feel more comfortable meeting in person, at least at this point, we'll make that happen and I don't expect that changing at any point in the future. Um Erik, uh this person wants to know must be uh maybe a business owner. what apps are you using for virtual consultations. You already mentioned uh Google um anything else you've learned to use effectively over the last year? Well, Google's primarily what we use for all um uh virtual meetings So, uh I mean, obviously, if the client, there's certain clients that you know, want to do it on Zoom or something like that but we try to stick as as much as we can to Google Google Meet um everything else is primarily done through Email Uh the only other app and I can't recall the name of it right now but it's easily found in the App Store. uh is the app to scan documents. So, people who don't have a scanner a desktop scanner but have a smartphone. Whether it be an Android or an iPhone or whatever. Um you can download an app that will uh take pictures of these documents and convert them into PDF format that can easily be attached to an Email and so um we have uh I would say probably the majority of our clients when they're done signing the paperwork in the Email that we send them the documents that they need to print out. Uh they will um uh they scan those documents with their phone and and then send that back to us via Email and then send the originals back and the other thing I didn't mention on the tech-savvy part of it is for people who don't have scanners, don't have smartphones, stuff. There are lots of businesses out there. UPS stores, FedEx stores, things like that where you can uh get things scanned in, uh have things printed if you don't have a printer and uh especially UPS stores. they seem to be all over the place. So, um there are ways to get around the tech issues but uh as far as apps are concerned that the primary one that that um that we're using literally on the phone would be the um uh would be Google Meet and uh the scanning app. Yeah, two things there. Um it's probably almost second nature now but a good voice over internet. um a telephone system and our offices we use RingCentral. Um you know, I can make a phone call from my cellphone or from anywhere and it's through my office system and I can answer calls coming into my office from wherever I am So many neat tools available with with a good VOIP phone system. You know, you can do either voice or video calls. You can record things You can transcribe things. It's uh a necessary tool. I think for anybody to have a good um VOIP phone system and then Erik, you know, as to the scanning apps. they're important but I've learned a lot of the phones uh just have those type features built in. Um I'm using a Google Pixel phone right now and the camera itself allows you to save something, scan it, and save it as a PDF type of thing. So, um again, technology is adapting, making these things easier for everybody. um and I and I think that goes, I didn't mean to cut you off. I think that goes to, you know, how society as a whole is moving into this virtual the comfort, of the comfort zone with the virtual and so again, had it not been for COVID. This transition that we've made in a relatively short period of time. maybe maybe would have taken a decade or more but we were as a society forced into this really compressed transition and it's been uncomfortable uh and certainly in the beginning, it was uncomfortable for everybody uh to get used to it all and to figure out what to do but as this drags on as this as this virus drags on as the as the variants come out and we continue to see surges in the in the virus Uh we're getting more and more used to doing conducting business as usual from home or wherever we may be located and so, as you said, technology is advancing all the tech companies are realizing, you know, their employees are all remote now. I mean, they're starting to realize all of these tools that we need and they're coming out a much quicker than they would have. I think had it not been for the COVID pandemic. We have apparently a business owner here that wants to know um what type of business expenses have you been able to eliminate by going virtual, office space is one of them. We've talked about reducing our footprint but what other expenses have you been able to eliminate? Well, I mean, we had employees, we had attorneys that would drive uh all over Southern California for court hearings. Um that's been eliminated because the court hearings for now for at least the foreseeable future are being done virtually. we when we didn't have um I mean it would be difficult to serve people who wanted consultations along with our clients when we were scattered out in five different court locations um because those hearings are virtual. It allows us to handle a lot more of those hearings and also have time to talk with uh clients that are you know, at the beginning stages of the process. Um so I think that the the um the office rents are are a big one obviously. Um the commuting and transportation and automobile expenses that we had to pick up um are big one especially gas being, you know, $4.70 a gallon right now. Those are the main ones. I'm trying to think. Um yeah, it probably the biggest one we've heard it said, you know, for for years and years and years, attorney's time is his most important commodity. We've been able to save time, right? We don't have to drive back and forth into the office or between offices or to court um and that's also so important for the people we serve. They don't have to buy more offices, drive to court hearings, take time off of work to handle a matter like this. Uh interesting question here. Um do you have any advice on getting out of a lease of if I uh want to go virtual? Um I think you and I probably both have one that's out there. Well, certainly uh we can do that through the bankruptcy process um but uh you know, talking with landlord, negotiating I mean it's going to be difficult because uh you know in the old days you might have been able to sublet the the commercial space. You might have been able to negotiate with the landlord and the landlord be willing because they had demand on their on their space. Now, unfortunately, for commercial landlords, there's a there's a surplus of inventory and um and so they are less and less uh willing to just say, okay, we'll let you out um but there may be some sort of negotiation that could happen uh pay off to so that you can avoid the bankruptcy process and the landlord still gets something uh for the remaining term of the lease. Um but again, that would that's a great reason to call one of us and come in for a free or get in again on a virtual consultation which again doesn't cost anything at all. to really talk that through a little bit more because there's obviously issues that may be more specific to a person's particular situation that would really impact that in ways that we may not know in a general way. Sure. And it's important for business owners out there to know, you know, I see a lot of folks have seen a lot of folks over the years that have gotten into financial problems in relation to starting up a business or a business that failed. Um you know, a free enterprise system just wouldn't flourish if bankruptcy didn't exist if there weren't a safety net there You know, a lot of businesses have been challenged. If yours has been challenged, if you're having financial problems, do give Erik or my firm uh Erik's or my firm a call and know what your options are. I can't say it enough. You need to know what your options are. reduce that uncertainty and the anxiety that goes along with it. Did I cut you off there, Erik, were you going to ask if There's just one last thing on the lease issue is that it also would it would depend on whether or not there was personal guarantees on the lease. Yeah. so, There's just a lot of factors that go into an answer to the that kind of question and best that you sit down with an experienced um certified bankruptcy attorney and and get it and again, bankruptcy may not be, there's plenty of businesses that I've had or conversations I've had with business owners that didn't personally guarantee it. I said, look, if you just close the door and hand the landlord, the keys, it's really they're going to go after a corporation that doesn't have any assets. There’s really not much they can do. So, Bankruptcy what wouldn't be the situation? It wouldn't be the answer in that situation. So, as you start, you started early on. Our job is not to have everybody file bankruptcy. Our job is to find the right solution and bankruptcy is just one of the one of the types of solutions that are out there. I'm going to throw in one last question here because I want to answer this one first then I'll give you a chance. How has your staff performed since they become a remote? I'm going to tell you our staff has been outstanding. Um Again, we're blessed at the Bond and Botes Law Offices to have a lot of people working with us that have been with us for a very long, long time. We're like family. um and I shouldn't have had any concerns about any concerns that I did have. Uh they're gone. Our staff has been very pleased with the ability to work virtually and they've been outstanding in responding to client needs, responding to the attorney's needs. Um we've been very fortunate. What's your experience been, Erik? It's been uh pretty much the same. I mean I will tell you that one of the ways to sort of judge a good business whether it be a law firm or anything else is turnover and the fact that you have uh seasoned employees as do we um really is a testament to how they uh you know, how we treat the people that come into our offices for help uh and um you know it's unusual for bankruptcy law firms to have employees the length of time that that your firm has had and that my firm enjoys um when I talk to other of our colleagues, they're always surprised that I tell them that you know, the average um employee has been with me for for something like 14 years. Um so, they've been outstanding. They've adapted very quick. Um I was concerned as you as you say, probably unnecessarily so that they would have trouble with the they didn't and they really stepped up and made space in their homes to have an office and uh and didn't miss a beat and um It was a great benefit to all of us. You know, at the Bond and Botes law offices and at Borowitz and Clark we are families and if you reach out to us for help, I've said this countless times, we're going to treat you like a family member. We want to help you find the best solution for you. Um so, Erik, I want to be respectful of your time. We're nearing the hour here. Um I want to thank you for joining us to discuss these important issues. Um to our viewers again, the Borowitz and Clark law offices are throughout Southern California. I've seen clients helping clients throughout that area Bond and Botes we're in Alabama and Mississippi. If you need assistance, please reach out for help. If you're in an area that we don't serve I recommend that you visit the National Association of Consumer Bankruptcy Attorneys Website, it’s NACBA.org. There's an attorney finder uh section on that website. Um just about offer free initial consultations at Borowitz and Clark and Bond and Botes we will do them for you from the comfort safety of your own home and office right now but we need to get through this together. Please know, we're here If we can help you, Um Erik, anything I may have missed that you want to throw in here before we close up. No, I want to thank you for having me. It's uh it's an important topic as we all transition into this new world that we're living in and I just hope everybody stays safe and get vaccinated and fights off this resurgence of this variant. Amen to that. Well, thank you for your help with this and with so many things you've helped us with over the years um and uh you can still give hugs to your wife and family. So, please give all of them a hug for me out there and um to our viewers. Again, thank you for joining us today. Please know that you can share these episodes. um and at Borowitz and Clark at Bond and Botes. Uh we're all about you know, faith, family, finances. Please let us know if we can help you. Uh until next week. Uh thanks for joining us. Thank you, Erik. Thank you very much Brad Appreciate the time